From: ········@bayou.uh.edu
Subject: Re: wretched C++ (Was: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper)
Date:
Message-ID: <5lgo0s$o8g$2@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>
Craig Franck (········@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
[Snip]
: >: I don't think people dislike C++ as much as they dislike having to
: >: learn OOP with it. It really is a GOOD idea to learn SmallTalk or
: >: anopther small OO language and use ot for an extended period fo time
: >: before trying complex OO languages like C++, Ada, etc..
: >
: >The problem with this method is that when people move to C++ after
: >using something like Smalltalk, they will hate it even more because
: >they now know what they are missing.
: How do you know this?
1) I've spoken to many such people.
2) I've taken "breaks" from C++ to check out other languages like
Smalltalk, Ada, etc... and when I came back, I immediately
felt a sense of deprivation, like I was thrust from the lap
of luxury and into a barren wasteland.
: >The only time I was remotely
: >content with C++ was before I knew of the many alternatives out
: >there; had I known of them, I wouldn't have taken a second look
: >at C++.
: I see: you are generalizing from your own experience.
Read what I said above. I am not generalizing from my own experience,
although my experience is playing a definite role here. I am drawing
conclusions based upon my experience and the experience of others
I've been in contact with.
: C++ is *not*,
: and will never be, Smalltalk.
Unfortunately it won't. However, it was optimistic to see that
C++ wasn't the only OO C game in town -- Objective C did a damn
good job of handling OO, and definitely had a Smalltalk flavor
to it.
: With Smalltalk, type OO blood runs
: through it's veins, and it is not just a language, but an environment
: as well: it is a revolutionary programming *system*. C++ is a language
: that had OO extensions grafted onto a procedural base. Smalltalk was
: born out of a vision that started with Alto, which came with the
: Smalltalk environment, a mouse, and Ethernet connectivity. I believe
: the software was written in BCPL, which C descended from. So, if C or
: C++ are good at bootstrapping grander things, that is fine with me.
This is an excellent point. One of the beautiful things about
Smalltalk (well both beautiful and at times disadvantageous) is
exactly the fact that Smalltalk _IS_ an entire programming
system and a gorgeous one at that. You sir hit the nail right
on the head. When I was comparing Smalltalk, I was comparing
the "language" (the portions you can find utilized in Smalltalk
implementations minus the environments), but the fact that Smalltalk,
or at least proper Smalltalk is much more is something that cannot
be overemphasized. Thank you for bringing this up.
However, I was told that the first Smalltalk was implemented in Lisp.
Second hand info, so I could be way off base of course.
: >C++ is bad enough as it is, comparing it with other languages makes
: >it seem even worse.
: Well, it is not like Smalltalk, but this in itself is not a bad thing.
Blasphemy! :)
: --
: Craig
: ········@worldnet.att.net
: Manchester, NH
: BBN has the brightest bit-heads on the planet. -- David Goodtree
--
Cya,
Ahmed