Harlequin is pleased to announce the release of LispWorks 4.0 for the
Windows (TM) Operating System.
Our web page contains full details:
http://www.harlequin.com/full/products/sp/lww4.html
Running on Windows 95 and Windows NT, LispWorks 4.0 is a major new
product which is competitively priced and offers no-holds-barred
royalty-free deployment on the 32 bit Windows platforms.
Clive Harris
Product Marketing Manager
Harlequin.
······@harlequin.co.uk (Clive Harris) writes:
>
> Harlequin is pleased to announce the release of LispWorks 4.0 for the
> Windows (TM) Operating System.
>
> Our web page contains full details:
>
> http://www.harlequin.com/full/products/sp/lww4.html
>
> Running on Windows 95 and Windows NT, LispWorks 4.0 is a major new
> product which is competitively priced and offers no-holds-barred
> royalty-free deployment on the 32 bit Windows platforms.
Well. It looks like it is really "competitively priced" even if it
still insists on the "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" policy of
offering CLIM as a "layered option" for an extra $200.
Suggestion: cut the crap and sell the whole thing (i.e. with CLIM) for
600 bucks. You will do a much better service to yourselves and to
the Lisp community as a whole.
Of course, Franz could start selling ACL/PC with CLIM for $500 :) Free
Market at its best.
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
...it is simplicity that is difficult to make.
...e` la semplicita` che e` difficile a farsi.
Bertholdt Brecht
With a mighty <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>,
·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu uttered these wise words...
> Well. It looks like it is really "competitively priced" even if it
> still insists on the "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" policy of
> offering CLIM as a "layered option" for an extra $200.
There are a few other aspects of LispWorks for Windows that concern me
rather more, as LispWorks plus CLIM is still less than one third of
the cost of the full ACL/PC system.
> Suggestion: cut the crap and sell the whole thing (i.e. with CLIM) for
> 600 bucks. You will do a much better service to yourselves and to
> the Lisp community as a whole.
Hehe. The extra sales might actually make this a more prophitable deal
than the current one. We're assuming that CLIM is desirable by enough
people to make this work, but I think that's a safe assumption. Even
if some people are still uncertain, $600 for the complete package
should convert them! I like it.
> Of course, Franz could start selling ACL/PC with CLIM for $500 :) Free
> Market at its best.
I wish. I'm currently using Amzi Prolog because $2500 for ACL/PC is
beyond my reach. This is my own money I'm spending, so...I'm far more
productive in a language that I'm used to, like Lisp, but I can still
be more productive in Prolog than C++. (Guess how much I pay for C++?)
If I'm an atypical Windows developer, it's probably because I want to
use Lisp instead C++ or VB. I still like Smalltalk, but I've moved on
in the last 15 years, and I doubt that I'd be satisfied with it.
Still, there are one or two Smalltalk systems that can make the
currently available Lisp systems for Windows look a little shabby, and
not just price-wise. Windows developers expect rather more than just a
powerful langauge, hence the success of VC++ and VB.
My hope is that LispWorks for Windows will create a little more
competition for ACL/PC, as it appears that the competition from C++,
VB, Delphi etc doesn't appear make a difference to Franz. Harlequin,
on the other hand, have a much more realistic price for their Lisp.
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
From: Erik Naggum
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <3067756959256171@naggum.no>
* Cyber Surfer
| There are a few other aspects of LispWorks for Windows that concern me
| rather more, as LispWorks plus CLIM is still less than one third of
| the cost of the full ACL/PC system.
I think Harlequin's announcement is very exciting news, but they don't say
anything about support or upgrades. both the standard and the professional
version of Allegro for Windows include support, for varying lengths of
time. it is well known that Franz' support is well worth paying for. the
professional version also includes free upgrades as they are released.
these cost around $100 each. the standard version does not include
upgrades or a runtime generator, but you can develop in it just as much.
additionally, the professional version comes with source code to a lot of
the window system stuff. I believe you can sell loadable object code to
others who have bought the system, you just can't sell runtime images.
(for that, you need the professional version, and this is where Harlequin
is doing something new. Franz could answer by de-coupling the runtime
licencse from the support, the upgrades, and the source code they give
professional customers.)
| My hope is that LispWorks for Windows will create a little more
| competition for ACL/PC, as it appears that the competition from C++, VB,
| Delphi etc doesn't appear make a difference to Franz. Harlequin, on the
| other hand, have a much more realistic price for their Lisp.
sadly, I can't find any prices on Franz' web page, but back when I was
asking for quotations in December, the standard version was $595 and the
professional version was $2495. (somebody from Franz should confirm this,
though.) in any case, the prices probably aren't far off from what they
were then, and _I_ think ~$600 is just "realistic" a price as ~$500, but
then again, I don't really know how prices work in the Windows market.
#\Erik
--
tempus meum perdo
From: Jim Veitch
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <3330D259.2F78@franz.com>
Erik Naggum wrote:
>
> * Cyber Surfer
> | There are a few other aspects of LispWorks for Windows that concern me
> | rather more, as LispWorks plus CLIM is still less than one third of
> | the cost of the full ACL/PC system.
>
> I think Harlequin's announcement is very exciting news, but they don't say
> anything about support or upgrades. both the standard and the professional
> version of Allegro for Windows include support, for varying lengths of
> time. it is well known that Franz' support is well worth paying for. the
> professional version also includes free upgrades as they are released.
> these cost around $100 each. the standard version does not include
> upgrades or a runtime generator, but you can develop in it just as much.
> additionally, the professional version comes with source code to a lot of
> the window system stuff. I believe you can sell loadable object code to
> others who have bought the system, you just can't sell runtime images.
> (for that, you need the professional version, and this is where Harlequin
> is doing something new. Franz could answer by de-coupling the runtime
> licencse from the support, the upgrades, and the source code they give
> professional customers.)
It is possible to buy the runtime license separately. Noone actually
does,
though.
> | My hope is that LispWorks for Windows will create a little more
> | competition for ACL/PC, as it appears that the competition from C++, VB,
> | Delphi etc doesn't appear make a difference to Franz. Harlequin, on the
> | other hand, have a much more realistic price for their Lisp.
>
> sadly, I can't find any prices on Franz' web page, but back when I was
> asking for quotations in December, the standard version was $595 and the
> professional version was $2495. (somebody from Franz should confirm this,
> though.) in any case, the prices probably aren't far off from what they
> were then, and _I_ think ~$600 is just "realistic" a price as ~$500, but
> then again, I don't really know how prices work in the Windows market.
These are the current prices (though we are raising the price a little
for
the Professional in April).
Why our pricing? Many, perhaps most, serious Lisp programmers are
pushing
the envelope. Often, they are talented programmers in any language.
They aren't building a simple report generator for managers to run.
They
aren't building something which has been reduced to toy examples and is
taught in beginning Computer Science. They are building things which
nobody
else really knows exactly how to build and which require a lot of
creativity
and perseverance to make it work.
So what does this mean for a Lisp supplier like Franz? We have to
respond
to people building leading edge stuff. This means we work very closely
with
lots of our customers to help them succeed, but this costs money, and
that's
why we price the Professional the way we do.
Now on the other hand, we want to make Lisp wildly popular. So we have
pricing which is competitive with Windows C++ compilers. This way
people
who want to use Lisp, but maybe not for leading edge stuff, or maybe
just
because they want to see what it can really do for them can buy it
easily.
When you consider a programmer directly costs maybe $100,000 per year
and
system administration and machines run around another $5,000 to $10,000
per year, productivity is a big deal. If Lisp lets you increase
productivity to build leading edge applications by 4 times (many people
quote numbers like this), the value is large -- like $300,000 per
programmer
per year! Looking at it this way, our prices for the Professional
product
are way, way low. This, by the way, is one real reason the Lisp market
remains alive and well in spite of all the doom and gloom I read on this
news group.
But, for the broader market, seeing is believing! People won't believe
this until they try it out. That's why we price the Standard product
at $595.
Jim Veitch
Franz Inc.
With a mighty <·············@franz.com>,
···@franz.com uttered these wise words...
> Now on the other hand, we want to make Lisp wildly popular. So we have
> pricing which is competitive with Windows C++ compilers. This way
> people
> who want to use Lisp, but maybe not for leading edge stuff, or maybe
> just
> because they want to see what it can really do for them can buy it
> easily.
Umm, I'd question the claim that your pricing is "competitive with
Windows C++ compilers". I realise that ACL/PC offers a programmer more
than a C++ compiler, but not everyone will appreciate this. While a
programmer should find it very easy, the people who pay for the tools
might not. Cue a long rant about bean counters, complete with Bill
Hicks quotes...
> When you consider a programmer directly costs maybe $100,000 per year
> and
> system administration and machines run around another $5,000 to $10,000
> per year, productivity is a big deal. If Lisp lets you increase
> productivity to build leading edge applications by 4 times (many people
> quote numbers like this), the value is large -- like $300,000 per
> programmer
> per year! Looking at it this way, our prices for the Professional
> product
> are way, way low. This, by the way, is one real reason the Lisp market
> remains alive and well in spite of all the doom and gloom I read on this
> news group.
Perhaps I should forward this to a few people I know? ;)
> But, for the broader market, seeing is believing! People won't believe
> this until they try it out. That's why we price the Standard product
> at $595.
I'm very tempted. The only thing stopping me right now is the money,
and the thought that I'll be writing code that I can't deliver. Well,
perhaps that's somebody else's problem. Right now I'm using a Haskell
compiler, coz it's free, and I can deliver the code. Next month, who
knows? So long as it ain't C++.
Perhaps concentrating on developers who are pushing the limits is the
best strategy for you, but I wonder about all the developers who are
left with less than leading edge apps, like report generators. Still,
it would help sell the idea of using Lisp instead of C++, which could
be a good enough reason to consider all those "toy" apps. If even a
small percentage of the VB market could be double the size of the
current market for ACL/PC, would you consider supporting a few
features to make your produce more attractive to those developers?
There's a Richard Bach quote that I often see on UseNet, about how if
you justify your limits, you get to keep them. In your case, Franz
seem to be justifying a lower, rather than an upper limit. It's still
frustrating, tho, esp for those of us just under it.
Also, let's not forget how little any of this will mean to the bean
counters. To them, the limit may be on the price. The promise of
increased productivity may be as unreal to them as the prospect of
increased sales may be to you. I know that's a harsh thing to say, and
may be totally unfair, but what if it's true? The cost may be the
same figure for everyone, while value is in the eye of the beholder.
Thanks.
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
From: Christopher J. Vogt
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <vogt-2303971213500001@204.248.25.27>
In article <·············@franz.com>, ···@franz.com wrote:
[...]
Sigh. In full disclosure, I have used Franz products in the past on Unix
machines, and I generally like them, and found the support from Franz to
be acceptable. I have always had a problem with the pricing of Franz
products, even on Unix machines. I would have purchased ACL for windows
if it weren't for the $2,500 price tag. I'm planning a purchase from
Harlequin based completely on price, since ACL is 4 times the price, and I
can't see how anyone can claim it is 4 times the value. I know I'm not
going to change Franz's pricing with this note, but as much as I tried not
to send this, I somehow felt compelled to do so.
> Why our pricing? Many, perhaps most, serious Lisp programmers are pushing
> the envelope. Often, they are talented programmers in any language.
> They aren't building a simple report generator for managers to run. They
> aren't building something which has been reduced to toy examples and is
> taught in beginning Computer Science. They are building things which nobody
> else really knows exactly how to build and which require a lot of
> creativity and perseverance to make it work.
>
> So what does this mean for a Lisp supplier like Franz? We have to respond
> to people building leading edge stuff. This means we work very closely with
> lots of our customers to help them succeed, but this costs money, and
> that's why we price the Professional the way we do.
>
> Now on the other hand, we want to make Lisp wildly popular. So we have
> pricing which is competitive with Windows C++ compilers. This way people
> who want to use Lisp, but maybe not for leading edge stuff, or maybe just
> because they want to see what it can really do for them can buy it
> easily.
I assume here you are caompareing C++ compilers with your "Standard
Product" which costs $595? This isn't a fair comparison, because I can
deliver a product in C++, but I can't with your "Standard Product".
Furthermore, the editor you deliver with the "Standard Product" can't
handle files larger than 32K (if I remember correctly) which is highly
limiting, while I could use another editor, I don't have this problem with
the C++ product. I don't consider an editor able to handle files larger
than 32K "leading edge stuff". Nor do I consider the ability to deliver a
product to a customer "leading edge stuff".
I don't know if I'm unique, but I don't need a whole lot of support. If
the company I puchase from responds to bug reports by fixing them and
releasing patches on-line in a timely manner, and strives to improve
performance of the product over future releases I'm happy. I don't think
that requires $2,000 per seat. However, I do know that Lisp
implementations are very complex, and finding a show stopping bug can be
*VERY* difficult and time consumeing, but in the end, you end up with a
more robust Lisp product, so I would consider that a win-win situation.
>
> When you consider a programmer directly costs maybe $100,000 per year and
> system administration and machines run around another $5,000 to $10,000
> per year, productivity is a big deal. If Lisp lets you increase
> productivity to build leading edge applications by 4 times (many people
> quote numbers like this), the value is large -- like $300,000 per programmer
> per year! Looking at it this way, our prices for the Professional product
> are way, way low. This, by the way, is one real reason the Lisp market
> remains alive and well in spite of all the doom and gloom I read on this
> news group.
This argument might have flown before Harlequin released their product for
windows (which I guess it won't *actually* be released for another week
yet), but I personally never bought that argument in the first place.
I have a product I need to port to windows. I have been delaying because
I have been arguing with myself about wether to pay the $2,500 for ACL, or
to not only port to windows, but port to C++, and I *HATE* C++, but I
already have the compiler, for which I paid about $500, and while I could
justify paying $2,500, I felt as if it were preditory priceing, and I hate
to give in to it (I the horrible sort of person who will bite off his nose
to spite his face).
>
> But, for the broader market, seeing is believing! People won't believe
> this until they try it out. That's why we price the Standard product
> at $595.
>
> Jim Veitch
> Franz Inc.
--
····@novia.net
Omaha, NE
With a mighty <················@naggum.no>,
····@naggum.no uttered these wise words...
> sadly, I can't find any prices on Franz' web page, but back when I was
> asking for quotations in December, the standard version was $595 and the
> professional version was $2495. (somebody from Franz should confirm this,
> though.) in any case, the prices probably aren't far off from what they
> were then, and _I_ think ~$600 is just "realistic" a price as ~$500, but
> then again, I don't really know how prices work in the Windows market.
Yep, those are close to what I recall the prices being, so they could
be spot on. In this business, it's sometimes the perceived value that
counts, as not everyone considers the extra value that a comopany like
Franz will offer. Plus, some people will only see the cost.
It's hard for me to be objective about this, as I'd buy ACL/PC anyway.
The only real question is: do I have the money? Well, I may know in a
few weeks. Whether or not ACL/PC can handle the tasks that I'm given
is another matter. Perhaps other Windows developers are more
fortunate, but I tend to get asked to write things like DLLs, which so
far ACL/PC does not support.
You could get the impression from reading various Windows development
magazines that this isn't too unusual, but I don't know what kind of
guide they might be. Perhaps they tend to focus on VB and VC++ rather
more than we, as Lisp programmers, might like. Perhaps this doesn't
represent the code that most people are writing for Windows.
As I said, I can't be objective. Where I work, anything simple enough
to be done in VB gets done in VB, and everything else will be DLLs.
I'm just hoping that I won't get asked to write an OLE server until
DylanWorks is released! That would _really_ make me unhappy.
I emailed Franz early on Wednesday morning, asking if they have a page
for their price details. A posting here would be just as good, tho. I
don't believe that this is a good time for Franz to be quiet. ;) This
would be a golden opportunity for them to point out what all those
extra dollars will get you, and why you'd want it.
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
From: Gregory Richardson
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <333050BD.3CE@enteract.com>
Erik Naggum wrote:
>
> * Cyber Surfer
> | There are a few other aspects of LispWorks for Windows that concern me
> | rather more, as LispWorks plus CLIM is still less than one third of
> | the cost of the full ACL/PC system.
>
> I think Harlequin's announcement is very exciting news, but they don't say
> anything about support or upgrades. both the standard and the professional
> version of Allegro for Windows include support, for varying lengths of
> time. it is well known that Franz' support is well worth paying for. the
> professional version also includes free upgrades as they are released.
> these cost around $100 each. the standard version does not include
> upgrades or a runtime generator, but you can develop in it just as much.
When I contacted Harlequin I received the following:
Thank you for your inquiry into Harlequin's LispWorks for Windows 4.0
(LWW)
and CLIM 2.0 product. Below is the product information you requested.
It
is also posted on the Harlequin web page.
In general, LWW is a full port of HQN's Unix product, incorporating some
extra features which are later scheduled for delivery in the next Unix
LispWorks version. Some layered Unix subcomponents are not provided -
e.g.,
CommonProlog etc. Porting from Unix to Windows is painless, except when
your application makes significant use of operating-system dependent
calls.
For a limited time (between now and March 31, 1997), Harlequin will
include
CLIM 2.0 to any customer purchasing LWW. So, if you were to purchase
LWW
between now and March 31, 1997, a license for CLIM 2.0 would be included
in
the $495 price.
Below is the pricing information you've requested.
LispWorks, 32-bit Windows port Single user price: $495
Clim on 32-bit Windows Single user price: $250
LispWorks/CLIM Bundled Single user price: $699
Annual support and maintenance Per user: $199
Prices include 90 days of warranty before the support and maintence take
effect.
glr
From: Georg Bauer
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <199703201029.a29633@ms3.maus.de>
Hi!
CS> I wish. I'm currently using Amzi Prolog because $2500 for ACL/PC is
CS> beyond my reach. This is my own money I'm spending, so...I'm far more
Huh? ACL/PC is about $600 - ok, without CLIM, but Common Graphics isn't
that bad. You really can go with the standard version, although the
professional version is much nicer, of course. Only thing I miss with the
standard version is the socket interface - I can't run CL-HTTPD :-/
bye, Georg
With a mighty <···················@ms3.maus.de>,
···········@ms3.maus.westfalen.de uttered these wise words...
> CS> I wish. I'm currently using Amzi Prolog because $2500 for ACL/PC is
> CS> beyond my reach. This is my own money I'm spending, so...I'm far more
>
> Huh? ACL/PC is about $600 - ok, without CLIM, but Common Graphics isn't
> that bad. You really can go with the standard version, although the
> professional version is much nicer, of course. Only thing I miss with the
> standard version is the socket interface - I can't run CL-HTTPD :-/
As I've said before, I need to produce stand-alone code. It often
needs to be delivered in a DLL, which ACL/PC can't do, so the price
may actually be acedemic. However, $3000 for a Lisp that can produce
DLLs is still a lot of money.
CLIM is currently irrelevant to me, as all the code I've written in
the last 6 months doesn't have user interface. I'm hoping that this
will change. I also would like to use CL-HTTPD, but mainly for my
curiousity. It's not something I have a use for, alas.
Obviously, this is just my own situation. Other Lisp programmers will
make different demands of a development system. All I'm saying is that
while I love ACL/PC, I can't afford it. I can easily _justify_ it, but
that's not good enough to conjure up $3000.
ACL/PC is a very tasty Lisp system, but a lot of developers won't need
everything that Franz are offering. Compare the features of ACL/PC
with those of the Amzi Prolog Logic Server, esp the C/C++ integration.
That's where ACL/PC loses badly IMHO. Try embedding Lisp code in a C++
app, and you'll see what I mean. Try calling it via a DLL.
Franz are going for the "high end" of the development scale. By
contrast, Harlequin have priced LispWorks so that developers at the
"lower end" can use it. Of course, at this end you might find that a
lot of people are looking for features like OCX/OLE support. Still,
the low price of LispWorks at least helps make it more affordable to
Windows programmers who wish to use it, instead of C++/VB/Delphi etc.
Perhaps a fair comparison should compare ACL/PC with the Enterprise
vesion of VC++, plus tools like Bounds Checker. That would help make
ACL/PC look more attractive to anyone already using all these C++
tools, as you could replace them with a single produce.
However, $3000 will still get you a heck of a lot C++ tools, and
they'll be able to do things that ACL/PC currently can't. It's
strange, but Windows developers do seem to demand support for Windows
features. I don't particularly like C++ (just the opposite, in fact)
but it's hard to argue about that.
That's why I'm curious about DylanWorks, it's support for OLE etc, and
it's price. I'd like to use a C++ killer, but I don't think that
ACL/PC qualifies. It's a damn good Lisp system, but that's not enough
for general Windows development. The same is true for LispWorks and
MLWorks, but at least they're not so expensive. That may mean that
more programmers can consider them as possible development tools.
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
From: Lawrence G. Mayka
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <332dec1d.482475306@news.sprynet.com>
Marco Antoniotti <·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>······@harlequin.co.uk (Clive Harris) writes:
>> Harlequin is pleased to announce the release of LispWorks 4.0 for the
>> Windows (TM) Operating System.
>Well. It looks like it is really "competitively priced" even if it
>still insists on the "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" policy of
>offering CLIM as a "layered option" for an extra $200.
>
>Suggestion: cut the crap and sell the whole thing (i.e. with CLIM) for
>600 bucks. You will do a much better service to yourselves and to
>the Lisp community as a whole.
Actually, when I ordered my copy today, I was told that for orders
placed before the end of March, the $500 LispWorks price includes a
beta-version CLIM at no extra charge. The final CLIM will then be
sent when ready--again, at no extra charge.
Lawrence G. Mayka
·······@sprynet.com
From: Arthur Lemmens
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <332E5CB0.3994@simplex.nl>
> Harlequin is pleased to announce the release of LispWorks 4.0 for the
> Windows (TM) Operating System.
> Our web page contains full details:
> http://www.harlequin.com/full/products/sp/lww4.html
The specs are impressive, and the price looks good.
Is there a try-out version available? (I've seen your web pages
about FreeLisp, but that seems too limited to evaluate LispWorks 4.0
for Windows.)
From: Michael Wein
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <332FB5F7.1BDA923C@dfki.uni-sb.de>
Arthur Lemmens wrote:
>
> > Harlequin is pleased to announce the release of LispWorks 4.0 for the
> > Windows (TM) Operating System.
>
> > Our web page contains full details:
>
> > http://www.harlequin.com/full/products/sp/lww4.html
>
> The specs are impressive, and the price looks good.
> Is there a try-out version available? (I've seen your web pages
> about FreeLisp, but that seems too limited to evaluate LispWorks 4.0
> for Windows.)
Yes, I�d also appreciate a trial version very much.
Michael Wein
Is "Windows for Dummies" another case of "this sentence no verb?"
············@nospam.wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:
>
> With a mighty <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>,
> ·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu uttered these wise words...
>
> > Well. It looks like it is really "competitively priced" even if it
> > still insists on the "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" policy of
> > offering CLIM as a "layered option" for an extra $200.
>
> There are a few other aspects of LispWorks for Windows that concern me
> rather more, as LispWorks plus CLIM is still less than one third of
> the cost of the full ACL/PC system.
>
> > Suggestion: cut the crap and sell the whole thing (i.e. with CLIM) for
> > 600 bucks. You will do a much better service to yourselves and to
> > the Lisp community as a whole.
>
> Hehe. The extra sales might actually make this a more prophitable deal
> than the current one. We're assuming that CLIM is desirable by enough
> people to make this work, but I think that's a safe assumption. Even
> if some people are still uncertain, $600 for the complete package
> should convert them! I like it.
>
I am not assuming that CLIM is desirable by enough people. I do not
care at all about his "demand" argument. I am just certain that CAPI
(Harlequin) and Common Whatever Windows (Franz) are incompatible and "yet
another CL based windowing system". This is pure madness from the
"greater good" point of view of having portable systems implemented in
Common Lisp. Of course it makes perfect sense from the narrow minded
marketing viewpoint of "let's bind the users to our system". But
Franz and Harlequin are exactly Microsoft last time I checked :)
Therefore: bundle CLIM with your release and let's have a nice price
war going. Next people will start learning CLIM (and not waste time
with CAPI and the Franz's toolkit) and maybe we will all get something
out of using Lisp as development environments.
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
With a mighty <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>,
·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu uttered these wise words...
> I am not assuming that CLIM is desirable by enough people. I do not
> care at all about his "demand" argument. I am just certain that CAPI
> (Harlequin) and Common Whatever Windows (Franz) are incompatible and "yet
> another CL based windowing system". This is pure madness from the
> "greater good" point of view of having portable systems implemented in
> Common Lisp. Of course it makes perfect sense from the narrow minded
> marketing viewpoint of "let's bind the users to our system". But
> Franz and Harlequin are exactly Microsoft last time I checked :)
What is CAPI? I've asked Harlequin, but so far they've yet to answer
my last email. Is it a CLIM thing?
> Therefore: bundle CLIM with your release and let's have a nice price
> war going. Next people will start learning CLIM (and not waste time
> with CAPI and the Franz's toolkit) and maybe we will all get something
> out of using Lisp as development environments.
I'd love to use CLIM. However, I also some platform dependant GUI
features. Plus, most of my code will be pretty platform dependant,
anyway, and none of it will need to run on _anything_ but Win32. I
guess that makes me an atypical Lisp user, but it's not at all unusual
for a Windows developer, apart from the fact that it's Lisp, instead
of C++/VB/Delphi/etc.
Now, none of that should interest any Lisp vendor unless they were
interested in selling their products to Windows developers. Forgive
me, but I got the impression that was what they were doing. If they
only want customers who _just happen_ to use Windows, then this won't
be a problem for them. I'll trust them to know their market better
than I do, but if the message is that I'm not part of that market,
then I have to wonder who _does_ sell a Lisp that developers like
myself can use? What are the alternatives?
Of course, if ACL/PC were available for $700, with CLIM and ODBC, then
I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. I might even pay more for it, but I'd
have to save up for it. Anything to avoid using C++...
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
From: Francis Leboutte
Subject: Re: Announce: LispWorks 4.0 for the Windows(TM) Operating System
Date:
Message-ID: <33310984.1450980@news.glo.be>
············@nospam.wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) wrote:
> ...
>What is CAPI? I've asked Harlequin, but so far they've yet to answer
>my last email. Is it a CLIM thing?
There has been an article about CAPI in Expert Systems Application (August
1992), "Delivering Lisp Applications on PCs and Macintoshes".
"The Common Application Programmer Interface is a portable UI tool kit ...
particular attention to the efficiency of the implementation ... CAPI is a
complementary solution to CLIM. CAPI ... espouses a simpler programming
model..."
Francis
--
Francis Leboutte, Algorithme, Rue de la Charrette 141, 4130 Tilff, Belgium
····@glo.be http://user.glo.be/~algo t&fax: +32-(0)4-3883528
With a mighty <················@news.glo.be>,
····@glo.be uttered these wise words...
> There has been an article about CAPI in Expert Systems Application (August
> 1992), "Delivering Lisp Applications on PCs and Macintoshes".
Alas, that's not a publication to which I subscribe. That sounds like
an issue that would greatly interest me.
> "The Common Application Programmer Interface is a portable UI tool kit ...
> particular attention to the efficiency of the implementation ... CAPI is a
> complementary solution to CLIM. CAPI ... espouses a simpler programming
> model..."
Complimentary, eh? Very tasty. Many thanks!
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
············@nospam.wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:
>
> With a mighty <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>,
> ·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu uttered these wise words...
>
> I'd love to use CLIM. However, I also some platform dependant GUI
> features. Plus, most of my code will be pretty platform dependant,
> anyway, and none of it will need to run on _anything_ but Win32. I
> guess that makes me an atypical Lisp user, but it's not at all unusual
> for a Windows developer, apart from the fact that it's Lisp, instead
> of C++/VB/Delphi/etc.
>
> Now, none of that should interest any Lisp vendor unless they were
> interested in selling their products to Windows developers. Forgive
> me, but I got the impression that was what they were doing. If they
> only want customers who _just happen_ to use Windows, then this won't
> be a problem for them. I'll trust them to know their market better
> than I do, but if the message is that I'm not part of that market,
> then I have to wonder who _does_ sell a Lisp that developers like
> myself can use? What are the alternatives?
>
You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
"standard" fo CL UI programming.
The fact that both companies are not bundling CLIM goes against the
"greater good" of the whole lisp community.
I will not go again into details about what I feel should have
happened long time ago on the Lisp/UI front. We simply do not have the
time (or the chance) to wait for "market forces" to choose a UI
platform.
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
With a mighty <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>,
·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu uttered these wise words...
> You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
> its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
> UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
> have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
> "standard" fo CL UI programming.
Ah, yes. Common Graphics. Yes, it would be better to support CLIM, but
if they want to charge extra for it, then some of us may have to
settle for something else. Also, there's no substitute for supporting
platform specific features, like OCX. Some of us have OCX controls
that we need to use, so lack of support will be a major problem.
> The fact that both companies are not bundling CLIM goes against the
> "greater good" of the whole lisp community.
You have my full agreement there! IMHO it should be included in the
standard package. I don't mind paying $700 for LispWorks, of course,
as that's a complete system, while $600 only gets me the cut down
version of ACL/PC, making delivery dfficult (if not actually
impossible). On the other hand, I love the editor for ACL/PC, and the
general way in which ACL/PC uses the platform GUI features (like the
standard file dialogs). I don't know about LispWorks, but if the
editor and environment are anything like FreeLisp, then IMHO it leaves
a few things to be desired. Perhaps that's worth paying extra for.
> I will not go again into details about what I feel should have
> happened long time ago on the Lisp/UI front. We simply do not have the
> time (or the chance) to wait for "market forces" to choose a UI
> platform.
Yep, be proactive!
--
<URL:http://www.wildcard.demon.co.uk/> You can never browse enough
Martin Rodgers | Programmer and Information Broker | London, UK
Please remove the "nospam" if you want to email me.
Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
: its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
: UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
: have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
: "standard" fo CL UI programming.
Yes, this is a very bad thing. On the MacIntosh side, we have MCL
with its own GUI. On the Wintel, we have two different GUIs from
two CL vendors. How can one be supposed to develop software across
these platforms?
: The fact that both companies are not bundling CLIM goes against the
: "greater good" of the whole lisp community.
The time for CLIM to be able to make a difference has passed.
And I don't think any of the Lisp vendors care about the "greater
good" of the Lisp community. Not Symbolics, not Digitool, nor
Franz, nor Harlequin. Maybe growing up with the PC has spoiled
me to expect a lot more from a programming language vendor.
: I will not go again into details about what I feel should have
: happened long time ago on the Lisp/UI front. We simply do not have the
: time (or the chance) to wait for "market forces" to choose a UI
: platform.
For myself, I will go with the way GCL is heading, using the Tk
toolkit which is currently available across the Wintel and Mac
platforms.
Bao
·······@lab33.eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha) writes:
>
> Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>
> : You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
> : its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
> : UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
> : have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
> : "standard" fo CL UI programming.
>
> Yes, this is a very bad thing. On the MacIntosh side, we have MCL
> with its own GUI. On the Wintel, we have two different GUIs from
> two CL vendors. How can one be supposed to develop software across
> these platforms?
>
Needless to say, last time I checked Digitool had a CLIM implementation
for MCL.
As the Italian filmmaker N. Moretti would say: Let's keep going like
this! Let's hurt ourselves! :)
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: Needless to say, last time I checked Digitool had a CLIM implementation
: for MCL.
This is news to me. I thought that the only Lucid CLIM 1.0 was
available for MCL 2.0. There have been no upgrade (CLIM 2) that
works with current MCL 4.0/3.1. But I will check again.
Thanks for the info.
Bao
In article <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>, Marco Antoniotti
<·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> ·······@lab33.eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha) writes:
>
> >
> > Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> >
> > : You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
> > : its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
> > : UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
> > : have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
> > : "standard" fo CL UI programming.
> >
> > Yes, this is a very bad thing. On the MacIntosh side, we have MCL
> > with its own GUI. On the Wintel, we have two different GUIs from
> > two CL vendors. How can one be supposed to develop software across
> > these platforms?
> >
>
> Needless to say, last time I checked Digitool had a CLIM implementation
> for MCL.
There is *no* CLIM implementation for MCL. (There used
to be CLIM 1.1 for ancient versions of MCL).
Sigh.
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
From: dan corkill
Subject: CLIM, CAPI, Common Graphics, etc. (was Lispworks 4.0 for Windows(TM))
Date:
Message-ID: <5h9fit$pm6@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>
In article <·································@news.lavielle.com> wrote:
>In article <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>, Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>> ·······@lab33.eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha) writes:
>> > Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>> >
>> > : You are missing the point. CAPI is an Harlequin product. Franz has
>> > : its onw version of CL based UI for Windows (I am not even considering
>> > : UN*X here) This is A BAD THING period. Given that both companies
>> > : have developed CLIM and that both "agreed" (more or less) on this
>> > : "standard" fo CL UI programming.
>> >
>> > Yes, this is a very bad thing. On the MacIntosh side, we have MCL
>> > with its own GUI. On the Wintel, we have two different GUIs from
>> > two CL vendors. How can one be supposed to develop software across
>> > these platforms?
Blackboard Technology faced this same problem in developing portable
graphics for our GBB product (as did our customers in developing
GBB-based applications). Since GBB is available for Allegro CL (unix),
Allegro for Windows, Lispworks, MCL, and formerly Lucid (now Liquid),
Symbolics, and TI Explorers, we needed to develop a graphics toolkit
that was portable among all of these platforms and CL vendors.
The resuling ChalkBox toolkit has only been available as part of GBB.
However, Blackboard Technology is now considering whether to make
ChalkBox available as a separate product. If you would like to be
kept informed of the outcome of this decision (or if you'd like to
pass along comments), a ChalkBox mailing list has been created. To
subscribe, send a message containing the following line:
subscribe chalkbox-announcements
to:
·········@bbtech.com
or simply reply to this message (to me--not the list, please).
--
Dan Corkill ·······@bbtech.com
Blackboard Technology www.bbtech.com
* GBB and ChalkBox are trademarks of Blackboard Technology. Other product
·······@lab33.eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha) writes:
>
> Marco Antoniotti (·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>
> : Needless to say, last time I checked Digitool had a CLIM implementation
> : for MCL.
>
> This is news to me. I thought that the only Lucid CLIM 1.0 was
> available for MCL 2.0. There have been no upgrade (CLIM 2) that
> works with current MCL 4.0/3.1. But I will check again.
>
I just re-checked and stand corrected. You are right.
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================