We need to figure out how to approach the problem of students posting
trivial lisp questions on comp.lang.lisp. I propose that we use the
approach that the "sci.stat..." community has used very successfully
which is to have another list (which they call "sci.stat.consult")
called something like "comp.lang.lisp.students". (comp.lang.lisp seems
like a perfectly good place to put high level consulting.) Students
can "cooperate" (or cheat, even) there if they like, and those of us
who would like to help out (which, by the way, I include myself among)
could read that list. I think that having such a list with its own
FAQ and protocols would greatly help both the professional lisp
community and the student lisp community.
In the meantime, let me encourage readers of this list not to reply to
questions which clearly ought to be directed to one's professor or TA,
or which can be read pretty much straight out of almost any lisp text.
Or, if you insist, to reply in very general terms as opposed to giving
anything close to code.
'Jeff
In article <··········@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> ·······@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (Jeff Shrager) writes:
>
> We need to figure out how to approach the problem of students posting
> trivial lisp questions on comp.lang.lisp. I propose that we use the
> approach that the "sci.stat..." community has used very successfully
> which is to have another list (which they call "sci.stat.consult")
> called something like "comp.lang.lisp.students". (comp.lang.lisp seems
> like a perfectly good place to put high level consulting.) Students
> can "cooperate" (or cheat, even) there if they like, and those of us
> who would like to help out (which, by the way, I include myself among)
> could read that list. I think that having such a list with its own
> FAQ and protocols would greatly help both the professional lisp
> community and the student lisp community.
>
> In the meantime, let me encourage readers of this list not to reply to
> questions which clearly ought to be directed to one's professor or TA,
> or which can be read pretty much straight out of almost any lisp text.
> Or, if you insist, to reply in very general terms as opposed to giving
> anything close to code.
>
I agree. I will usually respond to such a student's questions with "Is this
for your homework?". Amazingly they will almost always respond with "yes".
Then, unless they appear completely unethical, I will prompt them with
questions that will lead to them solving it themselves. If they don't
respond to your prompts then they are probably just out to cheat.
But for the students that are ethical they should have another news group to
post such "homework" questions to.
--
William P. Vrotney - ·······@netcom.com
William Paul Vrotney wrote:
>
> In article <··········@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> ·······@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (Jeff Shrager) writes:
>
> >
> > We need to figure out how to approach the problem of students posting
> > trivial lisp questions on comp.lang.lisp. I propose
> > ...something like "comp.lang.lisp.students". (comp.lang.lisp seems
> > like a perfectly good place to put high level consulting.)
I don't believe that this is a problem. The traffic is not that
high--1 out every 50 or so postings, or even more sparse.
There are too many new newsgroups out there. People get confused
about where to post, and some system managers won't include
all the groups on their news servers.
> > In the meantime, let me encourage readers of this list not to reply to
> > questions which clearly ought to be directed to one's professor or TA,
> > or which can be read pretty much straight out of almost any lisp text.
With this I agree 100%.
* Jeff Shrager wrote:
> We need to figure out how to approach the problem of students posting
> trivial lisp questions on comp.lang.lisp.
Why is this a problem? The traffic isn't high enough to worry about,
and I presume anyone giving a course is watching for people who cheat
like this in any case.
--tim
: Why is this a problem? The traffic isn't high enough to worry about,
: and I presume anyone giving a course is watching for people who cheat
: like this in any case.
Actually, I don't think that it's so much a problem (You are right
that the volume is relatively low.) as that it would benefit both the
student and professional communities. Students asking questions of
one another and of professionals who are interested in helping
students out ought to have a place to do this. I'm sure that if
c.l.l.s existed you'd get a lot more questions because students are at
the moment probably avoiding chit chat on c.l.l.
I guess in thinking about this I've changed my mind from worrying
about bother all of us to trying to support education and
disemmination of the language. This work exceptionally well in the
sci.stat. community w/sci.stat.consult. (Although that's not quite at
the level at which beginning students might ask, as I envision
comp.lang.lisp.student.)
Maybe this is what made me care enough about it to mention it in the
first place. Regardless, my humble opinion stands that there ought to
be a comp.lang.lisp.students list.
Cheers,
'Jeff
> * Jeff Shrager wrote:
> > We need to figure out how to approach the problem of students posting
> > trivial lisp questions on comp.lang.lisp.
>
Hey, those are the only ones I can answer! :)
I won't do someone's homework, but if they post a good, honest
beginner's stab at something I see nothing wrong in clearing up obvious
misconceptions or pointing out neat Lispisms that could help.
I agree it is pedagogically unsound to provide complete code solutions,
since that robs the student of the opportunity to learn, but I would
respect others whose teaching styles differ.
I also agree newsgroup traffic (sadly) is not so high we need to worry.
Do any actual students have an opinion on this? Would you feel more
comfortable with a list specifically for students? Would you feel
pushed aside?
'Jeff
Jeff Shrager (·······@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu) wrote:
: Do any actual students have an opinion on this? Would you feel more
: comfortable with a list specifically for students? Would you feel
: pushed aside?
Being both a student and an assistant on an introductory course I
don't think it's worth the effort. I would rather see local groups on
each school that are specific to a particular course rather than a
global group almost no one would use.
: 'Jeff
--
Tomas Arvidson *** ········@nada.kth.se * ······@csd.uu.se ***
*** http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~md94-tar ***
[Jeff Shrager]
| In the meantime, let me encourage readers of this list not to reply to
| questions which clearly ought to be directed to one's professor or TA,
| or which can be read pretty much straight out of almost any lisp text.
How would we be able to measure the demand for comp.lang.lisp.students if
students continue to get negative or no responses in this newsgroup? The
usual way to deal with new newsgroups it to split traffic, but c.l.l is
already at the level it would be at if c.l.l.s also existed. In other
words, we won't find a momentum for c.l.l.s from existing volume, but
rather among students who wished they could have a forum. Can this be
measured somehow, such that we could convince enough people to vote for
c.l.l.s and few enough to vote against it? That is, can we invalidate the
(usually good) argument that there is no visible demand for a new group?
#\Erik
--
I could tell you, but then I would have to reboot you.