In article <·······················@news.lavielle.com>
······@lavielle.com "Rainer Joswig" writes:
> > We have been specific in saying over and over. Those of us who have to
> program
> > for the PC _need_ a truely windows aware Lisp: we need OCX capability, true
> > OLE compatability, dynamic linking to the system's DLLs, and for a price
> > somewhere low side of $500.
>
> Sounds interesting. If I'd use a PC I'd certainly would like
> to have it. Would there be a market for it? How big?
> What do you think?
We may never know, unless somebody tries it. Has it been done yet?
If Lisp does indeed make programmers more productive, then it would
appear that a market _does_ exist.
If I appear to be negative about Lisp, it's only because I see so
many examples of negative thinking keeping Lisp where it is today,
in an ivory tower, used by elitists. Remember the Smalltalk balloon
on the cover of the August 1981 issue of Byte? I do. What we don't
see in that picture is the tether keeping the ballon from escaping
from the ivory tower.
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind
············@wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:
>In article <·······················@news.lavielle.com>
> ······@lavielle.com "Rainer Joswig" writes:
>> > We have been specific in saying over and over. Those of us who have to
>> program
>> > for the PC _need_ a truely windows aware Lisp: we need OCX capability, true
>> > OLE compatability, dynamic linking to the system's DLLs, and for a price
>> > somewhere low side of $500.
>>
>> Sounds interesting. If I'd use a PC I'd certainly would like
>> to have it. Would there be a market for it? How big?
>> What do you think?
>We may never know, unless somebody tries it. Has it been done yet?
>If Lisp does indeed make programmers more productive, then it would
>appear that a market _does_ exist.
>If I appear to be negative about Lisp, it's only because I see so
>many examples of negative thinking keeping Lisp where it is today,
>in an ivory tower, used by elitists. Remember the Smalltalk balloon
>on the cover of the August 1981 issue of Byte? I do. What we don't
>see in that picture is the tether keeping the ballon from escaping
>from the ivory tower.
Oh boy, do I ever remember that balloon. A friend of mine wants to
trade his copy of that issue along with the Blue, Orange and Green book
to somebody for an old arcade game. I'm trying to convince him
otherwise.
As far as the Ivory Tower, I agree. I'd like to see a book "Lisp for
Idiots", "Lisp in 21 Days", "Conquer The World With Lisp", etc. with
the Allegro CL Lite, Allegro PDF file, and all of the source pressed
on to a CD glued in the back of the book. I'd like the book to focus
on what Lisp has in COMMON with other languages in order to bait folks
into a the couple of "Advanced Topics" chapters in the back.
Stick some ODBC drivers on it that can create "Access" databases, and
folks will be balancing their checkbooks...in Lisp. Writing checkers
games...in Lisp. Doing all of those things that folks think they want
done, but can't seem to find the right software and they're willing to
learn and program themselves...in Lisp. Kind of a Grass Roots thing.
Folks that read these books don't want "Computer Science", they want
"Paint By Numbers". If the readers don't finish the book, then they'll
believe that Lisp is "Just like the others", so why be afraid of it? If
they stick to the end of the books, then they'll discover that not only
is Lisp "Just like the others, but it is something more as well. A
wolf in cheap clothing." with the ISBNs of Grahams books as a
followup.
Lisp has IF statements, so does VB. Lisp has FOR loops, so does VB.
Lisp has a dialog builder (Allegro does), do does VB. Lisp can have
structures, so does VB. Functions? Subroutines? Lisp and VB are pretty
close.
What does VB have that Lisp doesn't have? Volume! Allegro has a FFI,
and third parties can ADD widgets if they want, but without the market
volume, there is no incentive. There are a zillion VBXs out there.
A book might attract folks to Lisp, which will attract volume to Franz,
which may let them lower their price, which will attract more volume,
which may attract 3rd parties, yada yada yada.
--
Will Hartung - Rancho Santa Margarita. It's a dry heat. ······@netcom.com
1990 VFR750 - VFR=Very Red "Ho, HaHa, Dodge, Parry, Spin, HA! THRUST!"
1993 Explorer - Cage? Hell, it's a prison. -D. Duck
In article <················@netcom.com> ······@netcom.com "Will Hartung" writes:
> Oh boy, do I ever remember that balloon. A friend of mine wants to
> trade his copy of that issue along with the Blue, Orange and Green book
> to somebody for an old arcade game. I'm trying to convince him
> otherwise.
The Green book is my favourite. I learned a _lot_ from that one.
> As far as the Ivory Tower, I agree. I'd like to see a book "Lisp for
> Idiots", "Lisp in 21 Days", "Conquer The World With Lisp", etc. with
> the Allegro CL Lite, Allegro PDF file, and all of the source pressed
> on to a CD glued in the back of the book. I'd like the book to focus
> on what Lisp has in COMMON with other languages in order to bait folks
> into a the couple of "Advanced Topics" chapters in the back.
Don't forget "Lisp for Dummies". ;) Yes, something like that
would be needed to sell Lisp to the masses. There are so many
books about Java and C++ using that approach that Lisp books
like W&H and SICP wouldn't stand a chance. Being high quality
isn't enough any more - you have to speak the same language
(no pun intended). You also have to show how relevant Lisp is
to everyday programmers, i.e. "dummies".
> Stick some ODBC drivers on it that can create "Access" databases, and
> folks will be balancing their checkbooks...in Lisp. Writing checkers
> games...in Lisp. Doing all of those things that folks think they want
> done, but can't seem to find the right software and they're willing to
> learn and program themselves...in Lisp. Kind of a Grass Roots thing.
The only reason I avoid Access programming is that I'd have
to use C++ or VB. Now, if I could do it in Lisp, I could test
my code at the keyboard. I used to be able to do that once.
Ah, but I used Forth back then, on an 8-bit machine.
So, instead, I'm writing CGI code in Perl...Just like a
lot of other people. I don't even have time to play in
Lisp, never mind doing any programming.
> Folks that read these books don't want "Computer Science", they want
> "Paint By Numbers". If the readers don't finish the book, then they'll
> believe that Lisp is "Just like the others", so why be afraid of it? If
> they stick to the end of the books, then they'll discover that not only
> is Lisp "Just like the others, but it is something more as well. A
> wolf in cheap clothing." with the ISBNs of Grahams books as a
> followup.
Too many C programmers today think that K&R is tough
reading. I wouldn't let them anywhere near W&H! Not until
they've mastered the basics, that is. That wouldn't even
be _half_ of W&H.
> Lisp has IF statements, so does VB. Lisp has FOR loops, so does VB.
> Lisp has a dialog builder (Allegro does), do does VB. Lisp can have
> structures, so does VB. Functions? Subroutines? Lisp and VB are pretty
> close.
"Lisp for VB Programmers", hmm. If I didn't find VB so
repellant, I might be tempted to write such a book. I'd
enlist a VB programmer to help me, in case I overestimated
the abilities of the average VB programmer. It's too easy
to forget, even as you're using it, just how primitive a
language like Basic really is.
Using more advanced languages can give you a better
understanding of less sophisticated languages, but you
might also overestimate other people's experience and
skills. I see this happening a lot, in all kinds of
areas of computing (and elsewhere).
> What does VB have that Lisp doesn't have? Volume! Allegro has a FFI,
> and third parties can ADD widgets if they want, but without the market
> volume, there is no incentive. There are a zillion VBXs out there.
And many OCXs, too. The Win32 market is growing, while
the Win16 market is slowly dying. Widgets like Allegro's
are neat, but of less value to most users and developers.
Experience tells us that closed systems are of limited
interest (to the point where many products just die),
and that open systems are more likely to survive, due
to third parties developing masses of support, addons,
books, and let's not forget my favourite, consultancy.
As you say, there are a zillion VBXs out there. Pretty
soon there'll be a zillion OCXs to keep them company,
and in time take their place. Can Lisp programmers take
advantage of them? Possibly, but if it can be done, it's
not easy to discover how.
Meanwhile, every VC++ and VB programmer _knows_ they can
use all those fab VBX/OCX tools out there. Remember the
"software kit" idea? I used to think that was a Smalltalk
thing, but no, it's VC++/VB. You just take the parts and
glue 'em together with a little code.
> A book might attract folks to Lisp, which will attract volume to Franz,
> which may let them lower their price, which will attract more volume,
> which may attract 3rd parties, yada yada yada.
Yep. Why should MS, Borland, Symantec, etc take all the
cash? Of course, we have a biased interest here, being
Lisp programmers. Naturally we want Lisp vendors like
Franz and Harlequin to be more successful!
--
<URL:http://www.enrapture.com/cybes/> You can never browse enough
Future generations are relying on us
It's a world we've made - Incubus
We're living on a knife edge, looking for the ground -- Hawkwind
In article <················@netcom.com>, ······@netcom.com says...
>
>············@wildcard.demon.co.uk (Cyber Surfer) writes:
>
>>In article <·······················@news.lavielle.com>
>> ······@lavielle.com "Rainer Joswig" writes:
>
>>> > We have been specific in saying over and over. Those of us who have to
>>> program
>>> > for the PC _need_ a truely windows aware Lisp: we need OCX capability,
true
>>> > OLE compatability, dynamic linking to the system's DLLs, and for a price
>>> > somewhere low side of $500.
>>>
>>> Sounds interesting. If I'd use a PC I'd certainly would like
>>> to have it. Would there be a market for it? How big?
>>> What do you think?
>
>>We may never know, unless somebody tries it. Has it been done yet?
>>If Lisp does indeed make programmers more productive, then it would
>>appear that a market _does_ exist.
>
>>If I appear to be negative about Lisp, it's only because I see so
>>many examples of negative thinking keeping Lisp where it is today,
>>in an ivory tower, used by elitists. Remember the Smalltalk balloon
>>on the cover of the August 1981 issue of Byte? I do. What we don't
>>see in that picture is the tether keeping the ballon from escaping
>>from the ivory tower.
>
>Oh boy, do I ever remember that balloon. A friend of mine wants to
>trade his copy of that issue along with the Blue, Orange and Green book
>to somebody for an old arcade game. I'm trying to convince him
>otherwise.
>
>As far as the Ivory Tower, I agree. I'd like to see a book "Lisp for
>Idiots", "Lisp in 21 Days", "Conquer The World With Lisp", etc. with
>the Allegro CL Lite, Allegro PDF file, and all of the source pressed
>on to a CD glued in the back of the book. I'd like the book to focus
>on what Lisp has in COMMON with other languages in order to bait folks
>into a the couple of "Advanced Topics" chapters in the back.
>
>Stick some ODBC drivers on it that can create "Access" databases, and
>folks will be balancing their checkbooks...in Lisp. Writing checkers
>games...in Lisp. Doing all of those things that folks think they want
>done, but can't seem to find the right software and they're willing to
>learn and program themselves...in Lisp. Kind of a Grass Roots thing.
>
>Folks that read these books don't want "Computer Science", they want
>"Paint By Numbers". If the readers don't finish the book, then they'll
>believe that Lisp is "Just like the others", so why be afraid of it? If
>they stick to the end of the books, then they'll discover that not only
>is Lisp "Just like the others, but it is something more as well. A
>wolf in cheap clothing." with the ISBNs of Grahams books as a
>followup.
>
>Lisp has IF statements, so does VB. Lisp has FOR loops, so does VB.
>Lisp has a dialog builder (Allegro does), do does VB. Lisp can have
>structures, so does VB. Functions? Subroutines? Lisp and VB are pretty
>close.
>
>What does VB have that Lisp doesn't have? Volume! Allegro has a FFI,
>and third parties can ADD widgets if they want, but without the market
>volume, there is no incentive. There are a zillion VBXs out there.
>
>A book might attract folks to Lisp, which will attract volume to Franz,
>which may let them lower their price, which will attract more volume,
>which may attract 3rd parties, yada yada yada.
>
>--
>Will Hartung - Rancho Santa Margarita. It's a dry heat. ······@netcom.com
>1990 VFR750 - VFR=Very Red "Ho, HaHa, Dodge, Parry, Spin, HA! THRUST!"
>1993 Explorer - Cage? Hell, it's a prison. -D. Duck
Excuse me, but:
_YES_!
Those yellow & black books sell lots of copies. And there is precident for a
"complex" subject: "ISDN for Dummies"
William