In article <·································@news.lavielle.com>
······@lavielle.com "Rainer Joswig" writes:
> Not many people *wanted* to buy a special purpose $50000 computer.
> MCL did cost some hundred dollars and a MacIvory was some
> ten thousand dollars. Still, a MacIvory is a cool piece of
> engineering, but out of reach.
Agreed. Lets' not forget the significance of the price. When some
people say they don't want something, they may means that they
don't want it at that price. If they can't imagine being able to
afford it themselves, we shouldn't be suprised if they ignore it.
However, some people will simply not want a Lisp machine at any
price. They may want a machine that runs other software, too.
This is the case, for most people. That's why I'm so glad to see
Open Genera available for OSF/1 and the Alpha processor.
> Do we need special Lisp hardware nowadays? Sure not.
> Do we *need* a Lisp OS? Sure not - but it would be nice
> and I'd like to have it. Why? It could make software
> development easier.
Of course it would! I'd like one, too. I'm tempted to buy a
2nd machine and install Linux on it, for this reason. While
it won't be a Lisp machine, it'll be able to run loads of
software that isn't yet available for NT.
Unfortunately, I may have much time to use it, as I also have
to use NT, and that's already demanding enough of my time.
It would be a luxury, but one that tempts me every day!
Are we typical potential Lisp machine users? I don't know
about you, but I doubt that I am. Maybe in a few years...
Meanwhile, I hope Open Genera succeeds.
> > Before you can sell Lisp to people, you must sell the idea that Lisp
> > is something they want.
>
> As I said before, I don't care about selling or wanting Lisp.
Ahh, that may be coz you can use whatever tools you choose.
Most programmers aren't so lucky. Therefore, I suggest that
selling the "Lisp meme" _is_ important. It is to me, anyway,
as so few Windows developers currently use Lisp there're very
few commercial choices available.
As I said before, nobody sells a Lisp that I can use. I'm still
waiting for Ilog to send me more info on Ilog Talk, so I can't
yet justify spending 22K francs. That's about 8 times as much
as a C++ compiler! Good grief. No wonder Lisp ain't popular.
> It's about applications. If people use Xemacs, that's because
> it is an excellent piece of software. People now are starting
> to use SCSH and Guile - because it does help them, even
> in alien environments (e.g. Unix). People are
> using software - not languages. They have problems to
> be solved, application areas, etc. I use a Newton daily.
> It is the closest thing to a Lisp machine. Still, nobody
> knows or cares.
That's right, nobody cares. Many of those that do still may not
care. They may still be fighting over differences between C++
and Pascal. Some of them certainly were a few years ago. <sigh>
Not everyone uses Unix or a Newton. Believe it or not, but some
people hate Macs! Some people even hate Emacs - in all its forms.
Not all of those people use Vi, either.
Face it. Lisp is seriously marginalised, while C++ dominates.
Some people may think that's coz C++ is a great language, and
that Lisp sucks. _We_ know that's not true, but so what? Memes.
> Again, don't sell a language. Sell solutions.
<sigh> Met me say it again: I don't give a shit about the language.
I'm concerned about MEMES! I find the memes I like in Lisp, but I
also find them in ML. I'm currently using O'Caml - for my own
projects. For commercial work, I'm still dreaming of a commercial
SML that can do what I need. MLWorks doesn't come close.
Memes. Sell 'em, and you get everything you want. Without 'em,
other people may tell you to use C++ or get lost. This is what
many programmers face. How do we help them? Sell the memes!
> I'm not an evangelist. There are great software libraries out
> there. Many not written in Lisp. That's fine. Still, programming Lisp is
> fun and we (being a *small* company) have made good use of it.
I also work in a small company, writing multimedia software for
corporate clients. I can't always choose the software I write,
or the tools I use to do it, but sometimes I can. I still get
asked to write C++ code, even when ML might do. That's the power
of memes.
> Good Lisp environments for PCs and Macs are getting cheaper
> and better. I don't have a problem with it. You are beating
> a strawman.
Getting cheaper and better, yes, but they're not always up to
the jobs I'm ask to do. Apart from the programmers I find here,
in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.dylan, all the programmers I
know use C++, VB, or sometimes Delphi. Have you ever seen people
give you a blank look when you mention Lisp? I have.
Stick your head in the sand, Rainer. It's memetic battle ain't
over yet. Those C++ memes are still strong! For some of us,
strong enough to decide which language we use, dispite our own
preferences. As I said, I don't see many programmers prefering
Lisp. Or ML. In fact, I see more of 'em choosing Java.
BTW, I recently wrote a 1000 word article about meta-programming
for my favourite magazine for Windows developers. I wasn't
promised that it would get published, but the fact that somebody
in a position to publish such an articles ask for one has to
be good news. _Some_ people, at least, have open minds, and
this magazine is full of them. Even so, I'd expect the reaction
of most readers to be, "Wha?" It's a pretty new idea for C++
programmers, after all. They haven't all discovered Open C++ yet.
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