Just to remind everyone, Franz has made the Linux version of ACL 4.3 available
free for non-commercial users. If you use Linux and want their Lisp, call them
at 1-888-256-7669 or use the form on their web site, www.franz.com.
No, I do _not_ work for them; I just like the software.
--
William A. Barnett-Lewis
······@mailbag.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are artists. Poets paint motion and light. Historians paint stills. It
can be dangerous to get history from a poet. It can also be the greatest
blessing."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <··········@grandcanyon.binc.net>,
······@mailbag.com (William A. Barnett-Lewis) writes:
> Just to remind everyone, Franz has made the Linux version of ACL 4.3 available
> free for non-commercial users. If you use Linux and want their Lisp, call them
> at 1-888-256-7669 or use the form on their web site, www.franz.com.
>
> No, I do _not_ work for them; I just like the software.
>
> --
> William A. Barnett-Lewis
> ······@mailbag.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "We are artists. Poets paint motion and light. Historians paint stills. It
> can be dangerous to get history from a poet. It can also be the greatest
> blessing."
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Just to remind everyone, it's not scheduled to be released for
another two weeks. And then they'll mail you a CD. So, plan on early
January for a delivery due to the Christmas rush at the post office.
Mike McDonald
·······@engr.sgi.com
······@mailbag.com (William A. Barnett-Lewis) writes:
>
> Just to remind everyone, Franz has made the Linux version of ACL 4.3 available
> free for non-commercial users. [...]
Very good news... Would it by any chance include CLIM? (why am I asking the
net? because I want franz people to see some enthusiasm for CLIM on Linux).
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu <·····@servtech.com> writes:
>
> Very good news... Would it by any chance include CLIM? (why am I asking the
> net? because I want franz people to see some enthusiasm for CLIM on Linux).
>
> BM
Extremely good question!
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
In article <···············@salmon.icsi.berkeley.edu>,
Marco Antoniotti <·······@salmon.icsi.berkeley.edu> writes:
> Bulent Murtezaoglu <·····@servtech.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Very good news... Would it by any chance include CLIM? (why am I asking the
>> net? because I want franz people to see some enthusiasm for CLIM on Linux).
>>
>> BM
>
>
> Extremely good question!
>
> --
> Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
> ===============================================================================
>
My guess is that it doesn't. Franz sells CLIM as an extra to
ACL. The announcement says they're releasing ACL4.3 for Linux. No
mention of CLIM, so I'd guess not. Isn't there some kind of royalty
payment that has to go back to ILA or whoever it is that owns CLIM? If
so, I'd doubt Franz would want to spend their nickel to pay the
royalty so we could have it for free. All speculation on my part, of
course!
Mike McDonald
·······@engr.sgi.com
·······@engr.sgi.com (Mike McDonald) wrote:
> My guess is that it doesn't. Franz sells CLIM as an extra to
>ACL. The announcement says they're releasing ACL4.3 for Linux. No
>mention of CLIM, so I'd guess not. Isn't there some kind of royalty
>payment that has to go back to ILA or whoever it is that owns CLIM? If
>so, I'd doubt Franz would want to spend their nickel to pay the
>royalty so we could have it for free. All speculation on my part, of
>course!
Unfortunately, the speculation sounds very realistic. I put the
question about CLIM availability in "comments and questions" box of
the order form--as I expected, no reply. Not yet, at least.
It would be great if they decided to sell it as an add-on for a
reasonable price (say around $100-$150 so it's comparable with various
Linux Motifs).
And what about Composer?
--Vassili
Vassili Bykov wrote:
>
> ·······@engr.sgi.com (Mike McDonald) wrote:
> > My guess is that it doesn't. Franz sells CLIM as an extra to
> >ACL. The announcement says they're releasing ACL4.3 for Linux. No
> >mention of CLIM, so I'd guess not. Isn't there some kind of royalty
> >payment that has to go back to ILA or whoever it is that owns CLIM? If
> >so, I'd doubt Franz would want to spend their nickel to pay the
> >royalty so we could have it for free. All speculation on my part, of
> >course!
>
> And what about Composer?
We (Franz) don't currently plan to do CLIM for the Linux version.
Historically, a major part of our costs in CLIM on UNIX have been
getting the Motif libraries to work. X11 versions used to be pretty
bad, but have been pretty good for the last few years, so I'm guessing
Linux X11 works well (but it's a guess).
What we'll need is some civic minded customer who has a CLIM need and
who is willing to fund a port. Same for Composer (which mostly uses
straight CLX, so this port may be easy, assuming the Linux X11 works
well).
Royalties are not an issue, however.
Regards,
Jim Veitch.
To follow up on the ACL/Linux/Intel thread: Does anyone have some benchmarking
data on Intel Pentiums for Lisp? I'd especially be interested to hear
whether the 256KB cache on the low end Pentium Pro's prove to be too little
for _real_ Lisp code. What would be illuminating would be numbers from an
application that uses 64MB or so with non-optimized garbage generating code
run on a Pentium 166-200 w/ 512KB cache and a Pro with 256KB.
thanks,
BM
·······@engr.sgi.com (Mike McDonald) writes:
> .... Isn't there some kind of royalty
> payment that has to go back to ILA or whoever it is that owns CLIM?
> ...
>
> Mike McDonald
> ·······@engr.sgi.com
Do you mean that the CLIM specs are not in the public domain? I
thought that Franz reimplemented CLIM for its systems while ILA was
more a Mac based implementation (but then again it has been a while
since I looked into these things. )
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
Jim Veitch <···@franz.com> writes:
[...]
> What we'll need is some civic minded customer who has a CLIM need and
> who is willing to fund a port. Same for Composer (which mostly uses
> straight CLX, so this port may be easy, assuming the Linux X11 works
> well).
[...]
What's entailed in that port? I'd be happy to pay $250 for 4.3 under
Linux, with CLIM, fi, and the composer tools. I'd also be happy to pay
reasonable royalties for the runtime if I ever deliver executables. My
hunch would be that I'm not the only one (make noises people). I'm sure
I'm not the only one who'd be happy to help with the port either, but it's
your source...
BM
[ ·····@servtech.com ]
> What's entailed in that port? I'd be happy to pay $250 for 4.3 under
> Linux, with CLIM, fi, and the composer tools. I'd also be happy to pay
> reasonable royalties for the runtime if I ever deliver executables. My
> hunch would be that I'm not the only one (make noises people).
*noise*, *noise*.
--
(Rmz)
Bj\o rn Remseth !Institutt for Informatikk !Net: ···@ifi.uio.no
Phone:+47 22855802!Universitetet i Oslo, Norway !ICBM: N595625E104337
···@ifi.uio.no (Bj�rn Remseth) writes:
>
>
>
> [ ·····@servtech.com ]
>
> > What's entailed in that port? I'd be happy to pay $250 for 4.3 under
> > Linux, with CLIM, fi, and the composer tools. I'd also be happy to pay
> > reasonable royalties for the runtime if I ever deliver executables. My
> > hunch would be that I'm not the only one (make noises people).
>
> *noise*, *noise*.
There is a simple way to get people to port CLIM to Linux (and other
systems).
Get the sorce code (with comments) in the public domain.
CLIM appears for GCL, CMUCL, ECL, ACL on Linux and, after all the Lisp
community will have something to boast about.
Is this asking too much? Has anybody at Franz and Harlequin done any
comparative study from what their CLIM related revenues would be when
fueled by a (hopefully) expanded user base and what they are actually
getting now?
Hopefully yours
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================
International Computer Science Institute | ·······@icsi.berkeley.edu
1947 Center STR, Suite 600 | tel. +1 (510) 643 9153
Berkeley, CA, 94704-1198, USA | +1 (510) 642 4274 x149
In article <···············@crawdad.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>, Marco Antoniotti
<·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> There is a simple way to get people to port CLIM to Linux (and other
> systems).
>
> Get the sorce code (with comments) in the public domain.
>
> CLIM appears for GCL, CMUCL, ECL, ACL on Linux and, after all the Lisp
> community will have something to boast about.
Currently I'm in the mood to say that we (the users) may need
to write our own version. It is almost impossible to even get
CLIM 2.0 ported to Macintosh CL, due to whatever reasons.
I'm tired of the vendors not supporting possible common standards.
Yeah, let's fragment the Common Lisp community. I don't
see that any movement lately. Common Lisp is not making enough
progress.
We still have no available CLIM-based development environment.
Why should I write UI code for some proprietary UIMS? Code
that's not portable? Some proprietary UIMS that slows me down
in programming???
> Is this asking too much? Has anybody at Franz and Harlequin done any
> comparative study from what their CLIM related revenues would be when
> fueled by a (hopefully) expanded user base and what they are actually
> getting now?
Sigh.
Rainer Joswig
--
Rainer Joswig, Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co, Lotharstrasse 2b, D22041
Hamburg, Tel: +49 40 658088, Fax: +49 40 65808-202,
Email: ······@lavielle.com , WWW: http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
Marco Antoniotti <·······@crawdad.icsi.berkeley.edu> writes:
>···@ifi.uio.no (Bj�rn Remseth) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> [ ·····@servtech.com ]
>>
>> > What's entailed in that port? I'd be happy to pay $250 for 4.3 under
>> > Linux, with CLIM, fi, and the composer tools. I'd also be happy to pay
>> > reasonable royalties for the runtime if I ever deliver executables. My
>> > hunch would be that I'm not the only one (make noises people).
>>
>> *noise*, *noise*.
>There is a simple way to get people to port CLIM to Linux (and other
>systems).
> Get the sorce code (with comments) in the public domain.
>CLIM appears for GCL, CMUCL, ECL, ACL on Linux and, after all the Lisp
>community will have something to boast about.
Not that I expect that porting to be easy. At least the
threading/processes subset of CLIM is hard to support in free Lisps. I
looked into the technical challenges to implement them, they're
certainly not easy to do as long as you want to keep your debugger,
editor environment and other unimportant tools.
Can CLIM run on a single-process Lisp, as a subset like Garnet does?
An additional problem is that vendors and free developers will have to
agree on a way to keep the sources, otherwise new development will
divert. But tools like CVS make that possible.
>Is this asking too much? Has anybody at Franz and Harlequin done any
>comparative study from what their CLIM related revenues would be when
>fueled by a (hopefully) expanded user base and what they are actually
>getting now?
I once bought Lispworks and thought over getting CLIM as well. Amoung
other reasons, I didn't because I wanted my code to be portable to
CMUCL as well.
I targetted on using Garnet instead, because:
- I can run Garnet code on CMUCL
- I have the source, so I can learn from it
- I felt CLIM to be is rather expensive, compared to the price of the
whole Lispworks environment.
The point was irrelevant before I did something serious because I've
been driven more into the networking business. But over here, CLIM has
some potential that should be used.
The possibility to extend CLIM with a Java backend has been
discussed. This work isn't done by "official" CLIM vendors. So, if we
want that code, we will have to hope for free software developers and
those usually prefer to work on free code.
I know, today everyone want everyone else to free their code, but let
me say I certainly not a random Linux advocat and I have nothing
against people selling software without source.
But in this case I could imagine that the income from selling the base
Lisp systems and providing support for the base Lisp and CLIM could
outweight the missing sales of the CLIM system.
Classes of people I think of:
- People leaving MCL because CLIM support is insufficient and - even
worse - future support is questionable.
- people like me who use one commercial Lisp for themself and use free
Lisp systems elsewhere.
- An unknown number of people seeking for any acceptable solution to
use a java-capable browser as a GUI-frontend for a server that
reserves the right to drive the application.
- People learning Lisp on free systems.
- unknown effects when a Java-backend becomes reality.
In a word, if a free Linux version makes sense, a free CLIM certainly
will also.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
···············@wavehh.hanse.de http://cracauer.cons.org Fax.: +4940 5228536
"As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex-
plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin
I exchanged a couple of e-mails with Noah M. Rubright from Franz
<········@Franz.COM>. Here are a few fragments of his messages
(posted with his permission):
> To answer your questions, though, we are not supporting CLIM and Composer on
> Linux. We have no plans to do so, either. Linux is going to be an
> unsupported product, so as a result, we determined that possible CLIM and
> Composer support issues should prevent them from being made available in
> that environment.
To which I replied:
> [...] in case you need a user's opinion, I would gladly pay around
> $150-$200 if CLIM was sold as an add-on to a free Allegro CL for
> Linux. Note that Motif clones are available for Linux in about the
> same price range.
And Noah answered:
> Yes, thank you. It does sound like a reasonable idea. I think the support
> issue still is the deciding factor, though. I'll send your email on up the
> line to product development and see what they say.
So "make noise, people"!
--Vassili
Well this is a good thread. Now that I think about it we also have
the name of the project. Call it FreeClimB (whatever the 'B' stands
:) )
Let me make a note on the quote from the Franz person. The key issue
is not "support" the key issue is to have one common LISP
architecture that runs on any implementation. This means that the
vendors should accept the idea that fostering such an enterprise is
worthwhile because of the expansion of the market of lisp users as a
whole. (If we can still hope for such a thing.) Hence *they* should do
the first step and release code that otherwise will never be used. (I
know this might be an extreme position, but it is the "right"
one.)
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
===============================================================================