I would like to hear the experiences of people who are using Allegro
CL\PC. I looked at this product a few years ago and it seemed very rough
around edges. Has it improved?
Specific answers to the following questions would be very helpful:
1. How is the editor? Are there file size restrictions? How closely
does it resemble Emacs.
2. How fast is it? Can you compare it to Allegro CL on a fast HP or
SPARC workstation?
3. How is floating point performance?
4. How robust is it? Assuming you don't mess with any operating system
calls, can you crash Windows from inside of Allegro CL/PC? (Well, I
guess a better question is whether the probability of a crash increases
over the baseline Windows crash level.)
5. How compatible is it?
Many thanks in advance,
Ron Parr
····@cs.berkeley.edu
····@dartmoor.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Ron Parr) wrote:
>I would like to hear the experiences of people who are using Allegro
>CL\PC. I looked at this product a few years ago and it seemed very rough
>around edges. Has it improved?
I've been using the latest version for about a year now and I love it.
It is much nicer than the Sun Lisp environment I used to work under.
>1. How is the editor? Are there file size restrictions? How closely
>does it resemble Emacs.
The editor is ok. It works for me; it is basically a notepad style
editor with emacs-style indenting and paren balancing. It is well
intergrated with the development environment. You can use emacs
keybindings with the built-in editor, or you can get a version of
WinEmacs that integrates with ACL PC. (Haven't tried it)
>2. How fast is it? Can you compare it to Allegro CL on a fast HP or
>SPARC workstation?
I can't compare it to a Sparc, but it is a little slow under a 486/33
Window NT machine with 16 Meg. It runs nice on my home machine (486
DX4-100 with 32 Meg)
>3. How is floating point performance?
Don't know.
>4. How robust is it? Assuming you don't mess with any operating system
>calls, can you crash Windows from inside of Allegro CL/PC? (Well, I
>guess a better question is whether the probability of a crash increases
>over the baseline Windows crash level.)
Since I'm running NT, I don't get too many crashes. ACL/PC has never
crashed NT, but then nothing else has either. There is one bug in the
3d widget library that will cause ACL to crash, but Franz was very
helpful and has a work-around. The 'interface builder' is really
nice. I've done some work with using foreign DLL's, and I get
occasional ACL crashes there, but that is to be expected.
>5. How compatible is it?
It seems to be very compatible with standard common lisp. I did find
one small bug with defining structures, but that's it.
The overall development environment is very nice. You can tell that
the interface was designed by someone who has done a lot of Lisp
programming; there are lots of little touches that make life easier.
(lamda list display in the staus line, for example) I highly
recommend it, although it is a little expensive. They do ave some
kind of academic discount, though,
good luck.
Alex
> >I would like to hear the experiences of people who are using Allegro
> >CL\PC. I looked at this product a few years ago and it seemed very rough
> >around edges. Has it improved?
>
It has improved beyond recognition from V1 - which was barely a windows
thing. V2 is much better integrated - I have "converted" Visual Basic
users with V2.
>
> >1. How is the editor? Are there file size restrictions? How closely
> >does it resemble Emacs.
>
If you like emacs get WINemacs from Pearl - it integrates very nicely
with Allegro/PC - Otherwise you are stuck with the 64K limit and a few
emacs key bindings in the built in thing. you need real emacs to
edit your c programs... read news... make coffee...
> >2. How fast is it? Can you compare it to Allegro CL on a fast HP or
> >SPARC workstation?
>
Fast it is... The only benchmark I have is that of the 8 queens
problem done in screamer NDL was similar on a 50/486
to on a Sparc2 under Harlequin in terms of elasped time.
No optimizations or compiler proclaims.
> >3. How is floating point performance?
do.
>
> >4. How robust is it? Assuming you don't mess with any operating system
> >calls, can you crash Windows from inside of Allegro CL/PC? (Well, I
> >guess a better question is whether the probability of a crash increases
> >over the baseline Windows crash level.)
>
Inside Allegro you're safe. I have not had any system crashes
due to the execution of lisp user code to date and on windows
that is remarkable!
> >5. How compatible is it?
I think a part of MOP (standard-method & proto) is not ch3. (but
that aint part of the standard anyway). It is sold as ANSI so
if you find a feature Franz will fix it.
It's not really that expensive - for undergrad student use I guess
2000 is a lot, but for professional hackers academics and shops
it's loads cheaper than a unix iron...there is a cut down package
for a lot less so I think any serious hacker could manage to find
the fun vouchers. Still there's always a new bike or board!
Summary: Highly recommended, Pearl emacs too!
If you're a unix refugee then this combination (+ NT would be
nice as WIN32S sucks!) will put the smile back on yer face!
Happy hacking!
Simon Beaumont <··············@bt-sys.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>> >2. How fast is it? Can you compare it to Allegro CL on a fast HP or
>> >SPARC workstation?
>>
>
>Fast it is... The only benchmark I have is that of the 8 queens
>problem done in screamer NDL was similar on a 50/486
>to on a Sparc2 under Harlequin in terms of elasped time.
>No optimizations or compiler proclaims.
Have heard some reports that the compiler doesn't make good used of
declarations. Any thoughts on this?
Sorry about this, but what's "screamer NDL"?
>> >3. How is floating point performance?
>
>do.
I think I'm missing something here.
Is this "ditto" as in same as above, or is it "doh" as in the
exclamation made by Homer Simpson, or is it "d0", perhaps some
admonition to use double precision floats - or to avoid them?
Thanks,
Ron
In article <··········@xenon.bt-sys.bt.co.uk>,
Simon Beaumont <··············@bt-sys.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>It's not really that expensive - for undergrad student use I guess
>2000 is a lot, but for professional hackers academics and shops
>it's loads cheaper than a unix iron...there is a cut down package
>for a lot less so I think any serious hacker could manage to find
>the fun vouchers. Still there's always a new bike or board!
Wow! Is it really that expensive? For $2000 you can buy Macintosh
Common Lisp ($495) and the Mac to run it on.
\ Alfred J. Reich, Ph.D. | (512) 386-4178 Office
_ \ Knowledge-Based Systems | (512) 386-4445 FAX
/ \ \ Lockheed Martin - Austin Operations | ·····@austin.lockheed.com
\_/\ \ P.O. Box 17100 --------------------+-----------------------------
======= Austin, TX 78760-7100 (http://www.lmsc.lockheed.com/LAD/lad.html)
>Wow! Is it really that expensive? For $2000 you can buy Macintosh
>Common Lisp ($495) and the Mac to run it on.
I have spoken to the people at Franz and it is a lot less than $2k for
students. I own MCL and a Mac. You can get MCL and a Mac for about
$2k, but you will be forced to either run MCL on a 68K architecture, or
run it in emulation on a PowerPC. In either case, you won't be happy
with the speed if you are used to using a modern, fast workstation.
Now, before all the MCL fans flame me: I know that MCL is supposed to
come out for the PowerPC "real soon now". This is great. I would love
to stay in Mac-land, but I can't suspend my plans indefinitely, waiting
for a product that doesn't even have a ship date. I have no choice but
to research the alternatives.
Ron
MCL is on PowePC (not native yet)?
A version of the following appeared in comp.lang.mcl last week,
check it out for more info. I took out all price information.
I don't think it belongs in this newsgroup at all.
------------------------included message-----------------------
Subject: MCL 3.0 products, pricing, availability
Date: 25 May 1995 21:37:10 -0400
Organization: Apple
Lines: 247
Sender: ······@news.cambridge.apple.com
Message-ID: <·····················@[198.112.73.151]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
PLEASE CROSS-POST WIDELY AS APPROPRIATE
MCL 3.0 is now slated to ship in June, 1995. The final testing period has
been extended to assure the highest level of product reliability and
compatibility with upcoming Macintosh hardware.
The following new information about the nature, availability, and pricing
of MCL 3.0 products is provided for the benefit of the MCL community and
supersedes prior announcements. It includes product and price information
for MCL 3.0, the upgrade for existing customers, and the redistribution
kits for MCL applications and the MCL compiler.
Of special note are new price categories for personal use of MCL. These
are only available directly from Digitool, which is now taking orders from
students and individuals. Commercial and educational institutions will
continue to order from APDA, which will begin taking orders for MCL 3.0
products in the second week of June, 1995.
Thank you for your continued support of MCL.
Hazem Sayed
Digitool, Inc.
______________________________________________________________________________
One Main Street 7th Floor Cambridge, MA 02142 USA
Internet: ······@digitool.com AppleLink: digitool
World Wide Web: http://www.digitool.com/
Tel: 617 441-5000 Fax: 617 576-7680
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
MACINTOSH COMMON LISP 3.0
PRODUCTS - [NO PRICES] - AVAILABILITY
----------------------------------
PRODUCTS
----------
MCL 3.0:
This is the first version of MCL that supports multiple processes, Apple's
WorldScript, and the ability to create distributable applications of
reduced disk footprint (with the optional MCL-AppGen utility included in
the Redistribution Kit described below). By itself, MCL 3.0 creates fully
customized applications designated as "Lisp Development Systems" which may
not be distributed or sold other than as part of the distribution or sale
of MCL itself (e.g. distribution within an MCL site-licensed institution or
via the inclusion of a full MCL license with each Lisp Development System
sold). With MCL-AppGen, MCL creates smaller "MCL Distributable
Applications" as described below.
The MCL 3.0 package includes a CD-ROM and both on-line and hardcopy
versions of the documentation: "Getting Started with MCL," "MCL Reference,"
and "Supplement to MCL Reference."
MCL 3.0 CHAMPION EDITION:
Identical in software content and capability to MCL 3.0, this reduced price
edition is available only to individuals and students for championing the
use of MCL at home, in companies, or universities. The Champion Edition
package includes the same CD as in the MCL 3.0 product with complete
on-line documentation and a hardcopy of the "Supplement to MCL Reference";
and is available only from Digitool. See below for qualifications and
ordering details.
MCL 3.0 REDISTRIBUTION KIT (beta release):
This includes both a utility, called MCL-AppGen, for creating MCL
Distributable Applications with a reduced disk footprint, and a license to
distribute an unlimited number of such applications ROYALTY-FREE. MCL
Distributable Applications created with MCL-AppGen will be nominally
500-800K smaller than their Lisp Development System counterparts.
The minimal 500K savings is achieved by the absence of the debugging tools
(trace, step, backtrace, etc.), development tools (Apropos, Get Info
dialog, etc.), listener windows, and the compiler from the MCL
Distributable Application. An additional 300K of space savings is possible
by the optional exclusion of the evaluator, macro definitions, and some
other modules.
The MCL 3.0 Redistribution Kit with its license replaces the MCL 2.x Object
Code Redistribution License, previously available through Apple Software
Licensing.
MCL COMPILER REDISTRIBUTION KIT (beta release):
This includes both the MCL compiler as a separate module, and a license to
incorporate it in an unlimited number of MCL Distributable Applications
ROYALTY-FREE. The MCL Compiler Redistribution Kit is required only when
shipping applications that call the MCL compiler at runtime. Good
candidate applications for such use of the MCL compiler include scriptable
CAD packages and new programming languages.
The MCL Compiler Redistribution Kit is not needed for creating Lisp
Development Systems, as the MCL compiler is included with the MCL 3.0
product.
[PRICES DELETED]
Mail: Digitool, Inc.
One Main Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
U.S.A
Tel: 1-617-441-5000
Fax: 1-617-576-7680
E-mail: ······@digitool.com (Internet)
digitool (AppleLink)
By Electronic Mail
Send a message with the information requested below to one of the following
addresses:
AppleLink: ·········@············@internet#
Internet: ·········@digitool.com
By Phone
Phone: 1-617-441-5000
Digitool phone lines are staffed Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 5:00
p.m., Eastern Standard Time.
By Fax
Fax: 1-617-576-7680
By Mail
Digitool, Inc.
One Main Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
U.S.A.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
----------------
Olivier Clarisse
Member of Technical Staff
AT&T Bell Laboratories
In article <··········@blackbird.afit.af.mil> ········@afit.af.mil writes:
>····@dartmoor.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Ron Parr) wrote:
>
>>I would like to hear the experiences of people who are using Allegro
>>CL\PC. I looked at this product a few years ago and it seemed very rough
>>around edges. Has it improved?
>
>I've been using the latest version for about a year now and I love it.
>It is much nicer than the Sun Lisp environment I used to work under.
I recently installed a load of Lisp which was developed under Unix
(CMUCL) on a PC running Allegro. I was also impressed by the
environment - reminded me of the old Lisp machines in some ways.
>>1. How is the editor? Are there file size restrictions? How closely
>>does it resemble Emacs.
There was a 30K limit on the file size in the version I was running on
Windows NT - that was certainly a pest at times.
>>2. How fast is it? Can you compare it to Allegro CL on a fast HP or
>>SPARC workstation?
My code ran at about the same speed (within 5% or so) on a 486 Compaq
portable as it does on the ELC in my office.
>>4. How robust is it? Assuming you don't mess with any operating system
>>calls, can you crash Windows from inside of Allegro CL/PC?
It's possible to mess up Lisp, certainly - for instance, I mistyped a
file or directory name using more than 8 characters, and things fell
over completely. I don't remember Windows crashing, though - we used
DDEs a fair bit with not too much trouble.
>>5. How compatible is it?
>
>It seems to be very compatible with standard common lisp. I did find
>one small bug with defining structures, but that's it.
Ditto - I found something unusual using "format", but that was about
it. Mind you, I tend to stick to very basic Lisp.
Colin
--
Colin Matheson | Human Communication Research Centre
Phone: +44 131 650 4632 | University of Edinburgh
Fax: +44 131 650 4587 | 2 Buccleuch Place
Email: ··············@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland
In article <··········@antares.Austin.Lockheed.COM> ·······@austin.lockheed.com (pj04216) writes:
> From: ·······@austin.lockheed.com (pj04216)
> Date: 31 May 1995 17:25:30 -0500
>
> In article <··········@xenon.bt-sys.bt.co.uk>,
> Simon Beaumont <··············@bt-sys.bt.co.uk> wrote:
> >It's not really that expensive - for undergrad student use I guess
> >2000 is a lot, [...]
>
> Wow! Is it really that expensive? For $2000 you can buy Macintosh
> Common Lisp ($495) and the Mac to run it on.
Franz marketing asked me to post this to clarify questions about
pricing. Feel free to send further questions about Franz pricing to
·····@franz.com".
At $595, the price of the Developers version of Allegro CL for
Windows is indeed comparable to MCL's. Allegro CL for Windows is also
offered in a Professional version, which is list priced at $2,495.
The Professional version includes the Developers' version plus a
runtime generator which enables royalty-free delivery, source code
for Common Graphics and the visual interfact builder, and one year of
support.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hanoch Eiron 1995 University Ave.
Franz Inc. Berkeley, CA 94704
······@franz.com v. + (510) 548-3600
www:http://www.franz.com/ f. + (510) 548-8253
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
---
Charles A. Cox, Franz Inc. 1995 University Avenue, Suite 275
Internet: ···@franz.com Berkeley, CA 94704
uucp: uunet!franz!cox Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253
WWW: http://www.franz.com/
In <················@crisp.Franz.COM>, ···@Franz.COM (Charles A. Cox) writes:
>In article <··········@antares.Austin.Lockheed.COM> ·······@austin.lockheed.com (pj04216) writes:
>
>> From: ·······@austin.lockheed.com (pj04216)
>> Date: 31 May 1995 17:25:30 -0500
>>
>> In article <··········@xenon.bt-sys.bt.co.uk>,
>> Simon Beaumont <··············@bt-sys.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>> >It's not really that expensive - for undergrad student use I guess
>> >2000 is a lot, [...]
>>
>> Wow! Is it really that expensive? For $2000 you can buy Macintosh
>> Common Lisp ($495) and the Mac to run it on.
>
> Franz marketing asked me to post this to clarify questions about
>pricing. Feel free to send further questions about Franz pricing to
>·····@franz.com".
>
> At $595, the price of the Developers version of Allegro CL for
> Windows is indeed comparable to MCL's. Allegro CL for Windows is also
> offered in a Professional version, which is list priced at $2,495.
> The Professional version includes the Developers' version plus a
> runtime generator which enables royalty-free delivery, source code
> for Common Graphics and the visual interfact builder, and one year of
> support.
When did this price change take place? I bought the professional
version last spring or summer for a lot less than that (just after
the split into two versions happened).
--
Bob Hutchison, ·····@RedRock.com
RedRock, 135 Evans Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6S 3V9
(416) 760-0565
····@dartmoor.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Ron Parr) wrote:
>I would like to hear the experiences of people who are using Allegro
>CL\PC.
I've used ACL/Windows 2.0 on NT 3.5 for the past several months.
Relative to MCL, which I've used for years, ACL/Win has a lot of rough
edges and minor annoyances. Overall, though, it's quite workable...
Here's my gripe list:
- The editor only handles files up to about 30K.
- The editor's syntax awareness is quirky - it gets confused sometimes
about matching parens and about whether to indent a line or not.
- As shipped, file name support is only 8.3 - you have to ask for a
patch to get long file names. If you make the mistake of specifying a
long file name without the 8.3 patch, you'll wedge the Lisp into an
infinite error loop. Win/Emacs (included with ACL/Win) only handles the
short version of long file names.
- There are a lot of patches that you have to ask for, and none of them
are yet "official."
- You can't control the size or face of the font for printing editor
windows - I have to use a separate editor for printing (and for large
files.)
- The condition system is not well integrated with the debugger -- your
restart choices are always {continue, abort} following an error.
- Although CLOS is claimed to conform to the ANSI standard, the rest of
the Lisp is not completely CLtL2...
- The application generator is not as "turnkey" as I'm used to in MCL.
- There are some major omissions in the online documentation.
On the plus side:
+ Franz's tech support is excellent, both by email and phone.
+ The Lisp seems very reliable - the only way I can deliberately crash
it is by overrunning the call stack.
Dave