Folks,
I'm about to purchase a new hardware platform to do Lisp development,
specifically for an application involving databases and the world wide
web. Out of habit (years of programming on workstations), I've been
leaning toward a Sun (perhaps a Voyager?) and Franz Allegro lisp.
It's come to my attention that perhaps I should re-evaluate the possibilities.
The overwhelming success of the PC world makes me wonder whether I should
consider an environment there, but I don't know much about it. Do any of
you have suggestions? I'd much prefer Unix to Windows, but perhaps Windows 95
or Windows NT (or NeXTStep or Sun Solaris?) on a PC box is feasible.
Do any of these systems have good Lisp development environments? I know that
Pentiums can compete with workstation power (or beat it, in many cases).
But I'm under the impression that the overall systems can't come close to
a workstation system for software development. Is this still true, or am
I way behind the times?
Ah, I still long for the days of Symbolics...
Any advice is much appreciated.
-- Don
--
Don Geddis ······@CS.Stanford.EDU http://meta.stanford.edu/geddis.html
······@CS.Stanford.EDU (Don Geddis) writes:
>I'm about to purchase a new hardware platform to do Lisp development,
>specifically for an application involving databases and the world wide
>web. Out of habit (years of programming on workstations), I've been
>leaning toward a Sun (perhaps a Voyager?) and Franz Allegro lisp.
>It's come to my attention that perhaps I should re-evaluate the possibilities.
>The overwhelming success of the PC world makes me wonder whether I should
>consider an environment there, but I don't know much about it. Do any of
>you have suggestions? I'd much prefer Unix to Windows, but perhaps Windows 95
>or Windows NT (or NeXTStep or Sun Solaris?) on a PC box is feasible.
>Do any of these systems have good Lisp development environments? I know that
>Pentiums can compete with workstation power (or beat it, in many cases).
>But I'm under the impression that the overall systems can't come close to
>a workstation system for software development. Is this still true, or am
>I way behind the times?
A Pentium has enormous power for the money. It is not true anymore
that the overall system stops the show of the CPU. The lastest Pentium
chipsets (Triton) has more meory bandwith than most workstations, PCI
with NCR-810 SCSI Controllers and modern EThernet card drivers are as
fast as the workstation equipment (as long as you get drivers).
However, there is no Common Lisp Compiler that generates native Code
on UNIX, only a via-C-Compiler (GNU Common Lisp) that doesn't optimize
as good as CMU-CL.
If you need power for Lisp, you're probably better off using CMU-CL on
a little SPARCstation or HP 712/60 than by a pentium with gcl. For
Lisp, make sure to get a machine with a real cache, not one of those
internal-cache-only systems.
Additionally, the commercial Common Lisp Systems doesn't run on any
intel-based machines, at least not the newer versions. If you can buy
Lispworks or Allegro, that is probably the best Solution.
Allegro CL/PC seems nice, but I would think twice about using
Windows. Of course, if Lisp is the *only* thing you want to do,
Windows as a loader for CL/PC may be acceptable.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@wavehh.hanse.de>. No NeXTMail, please.
Norderstedt/Hamburg, Germany. Fax +49 40 522 85 36. This is a
private address. At (netless) work programming in data analysis.
From: Richard M. Alderson III
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Lisp development system?
Date:
Message-ID: <aldersonD9tqvM.82K@netcom.com>
In article <·····················@wavehh.hanse.de> ········@wavehh.hanse.de
(Martin Cracauer) writes:
[beginning of discussion of Pentium processors as Lisp engines --rma]
>However, there is no Common Lisp Compiler that generates native Code
>on UNIX, only a via-C-Compiler (GNU Common Lisp) that doesn't optimize
^^^^
>as good as CMU-CL.
I have to assume that you mean "Unix *running on a Pentium*", nicht wahr?
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
········@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
········@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>In article <·····················@wavehh.hanse.de> ········@wavehh.hanse.de
>(Martin Cracauer) writes:
>[beginning of discussion of Pentium processors as Lisp engines --rma]
>>However, there is no Common Lisp Compiler that generates native Code
>>on UNIX, only a via-C-Compiler (GNU Common Lisp) that doesn't optimize
> ^^^^
>>as good as CMU-CL.
>I have to assume that you mean "Unix *running on a Pentium*", nicht wahr?
"native code for i386 family under UNIX" I meant. CL/PC is a native
compiler for intel, but not under UNIX.
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@wavehh.hanse.de>. No NeXTMail, please.
Norderstedt/Hamburg, Germany. Fax +49 40 522 85 36. This is a
private address. At (netless) work programming in data analysis.
From: Patrick Logan
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Lisp development system?
Date:
Message-ID: <3r539m$3np@ornews.intel.com>
Martin Cracauer (········@wavehh.hanse.de) wrote:
: Allegro CL/PC seems nice, but I would think twice about using
: Windows. Of course, if Lisp is the *only* thing you want to do,
: Windows as a loader for CL/PC may be acceptable.
ACL/PC runs on Win NT, which is a reasonable alternative to Unix.
It should not be considered just a loader, like Win 3.1 is.
--
···············@ccm.jf.intel.com
Intel/Personal Conferencing
"Form follows function." -Le Corbusier
······@CS.Stanford.EDU (Don Geddis) wrote:
>I'm about to purchase a new hardware platform to do Lisp development,
>specifically for an application involving databases and the world wide
>web. Out of habit (years of programming on workstations), I've been
>leaning toward a Sun (perhaps a Voyager?) and Franz Allegro lisp.
>
>It's come to my attention that perhaps I should re-evaluate the possibilities.
>The overwhelming success of the PC world makes me wonder whether I should
>consider an environment there, but I don't know much about it. Do any of
>you have suggestions? I'd much prefer Unix to Windows, but perhaps Windows 95
>or Windows NT (or NeXTStep or Sun Solaris?) on a PC box is feasible.
>
>Do any of these systems have good Lisp development environments? I know that
>Pentiums can compete with workstation power (or beat it, in many cases).
>But I'm under the impression that the overall systems can't come close to
>a workstation system for software development. Is this still true, or am
>I way behind the times?
A (syntactically) null reply may have slipped through prior to this -- wrong
button, sorry...
Personally, I find NT to be a very solid OS -- no qualifiers needed. Franz
makes a version of ACL that will run under NT. I don't think it shares a
common heritage with their Unix product.
You may also want to consider running Linux on a PC, and ask Franz whether they
have a Linux port of ACL. Of course, you have other zero-cost alternatives
like GCL.
It doesn't sound like you're in a big hurry, so you may want to wait for
Digitool (http:\\www.digitool.com) to finish porting MCL to run native on
PowerPC Macs -- MCL is the most polished Lisp implementation I've seen on
stock hardware.
Dave
http://www.teleport.com/~dlamkins
---
CPU Cycles: Use them now, while you still have them.
From: Bill Hunter
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Lisp development system?
Date:
Message-ID: <687cb$9d20.f@cat.bbsr.edu>
"David B. Lamkins" <········@teleport.com> wrote:
>Personally, I find NT to be a very solid OS -- no qualifiers needed. Franz
>makes a version of ACL that will run under NT. I don't think it shares a
>common heritage with their Unix product.
I second the motion. NT on a 90 Mhz Pentium with 32 Mb RAM and a 21"
monitor provides a very adequate development platform. By the way,
don't even bother with DOS-Windows 3.1 for ACL - stack sizes will be
limited to 128kb (for compatibility with any 8088 users, I suppose :-)
One caveat - the built in editor is limited to 32 kb of text. When I
got ACL, Franz's solution was to bundle Pearl WinEmacs as part of the
package, but I have yet to get it o work reliably.
>It doesn't sound like you're in a big hurry, so you may want to wait for
>Digitool (http:\\www.digitool.com) to finish porting MCL to run native on
>PowerPC Macs -- MCL is the most polished Lisp implementation I've seen on
>stock hardware.
Reluctantly agree. Only reluctant because I don't really have the
option of using a Mac/ PowerPC now. My old Mac II (68020, 8 Mb, 40 Mb
HD) ran MCL admirably; I assume the PowerPC port will behave
similarly.
>Dave
>http://www.teleport.com/~dlamkins
>---
>CPU Cycles: Use them now, while you still have them.
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Lisp development system?
Date:
Message-ID: <3r78hp$nul@disunms.epfl.ch>
In article <············@cat.bbsr.edu>, <·······@cat.bbsr.edu> (Bill Hunter) writes:
> "David B. Lamkins" <········@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >Personally, I find NT to be a very solid OS -- no qualifiers needed. Franz
> >makes a version of ACL that will run under NT. I don't think it shares a
> >common heritage with their Unix product.
>
> I second the motion. NT on a 90 Mhz Pentium with 32 Mb RAM and a 21"
> monitor provides a very adequate development platform. By the way,
Is there ACL/PC for DEC RISCstations? (NT on Alpha)
--
F.D. Mato Mira http://ligwww.epfl.ch/matomira.html
Computer Graphics Lab ········@epfl.ch
EPFL FAX: +41 (21) 693-5328
········@di.epfl.ch (Fernando Mato Mira) wrote:
>Is there ACL/PC for DEC RISCstations? (NT on Alpha)
I don't think so. Look at http://www.franz.com/
Dave
http://www.teleport.com/~dlamkins
---
CPU Cycles: Use them now, while you still have them.
From: 55437-olivier clarisse(haim)463
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Lisp development system?
Date:
Message-ID: <D9v4uI.26p@ssbunews.ih.att.com>
In article <··········@Radon.Stanford.EDU>, ······@CS.Stanford.EDU (Don Geddis) writes:
|> Folks,
|>
|> I'm about to purchase a new hardware platform to do Lisp development,
|> specifically for an application involving databases and the world wide
|> web. Out of habit (years of programming on workstations), I've been
|> leaning toward a Sun (perhaps a Voyager?) and Franz Allegro lisp.
|>
If you choose to use a PC then Allegro CL for Windows is the best I have seen,
you get a full CLOS development environment plus a Windows graphical interface
and interface builder. VB and VC++ seem so popular in the PC world
yet I cannot think of anything they do that can't be done similarly
or easier in ACL for Windows. Plus you can use everything else CL and
CLOS are uniquely good at...
--
----------------
Olivier Clarisse "Languages are not unlike living organisms
Member of Technical Staff can they adapt and improve to survive?"
AT&T Bell Laboratories